Abortion Is Nun Of Your Business [Pic]

Submitted by: SweepOfDeath 3 years ago

You tell "em sister. A religious person with CONSISTENT morals calling out the hypocrites.
There are 114 comments:
Female 2,415
@5Cats, it`s the effort to improve that`s important; when dealing with those societies/religions the abortion issue is just one of many ways that women are abused... where to start? how to get it `fixed`? Good questions, especially as they resist as much as they can. Again, you just have to start somewhere and try.
@HolyGod "Abortion is used as a form of birth control today. I know people who have had 3+ abortions." I find it repugnant as well; I`m pro-choice but I do not agree with it being used in that manner. It is so much easier these days to be sexually active but not get pregnant that there should be no excuse for some people who get knocked up! ... and yet it still should be available.
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Male 36,374
@HolyGod: For example:
3 Canadians were arrested in Saudi Arabia (YEARS ago! Don`t ask for a link!) for:

Mixed drinking.

Yes it`s true!
In a hotel room, 2 gals and 1 guy were drinking alcohol! They faced 20 YEARS if convicted!

The court dismissed the alcohol charge because they were non-Muslims, BUT the "mixed" charges stood! Not kidding!
Luckily the Canadian Embassy managed to negotiate their release (and expulsion) after only a few weeks in jail...

"Blue Laws"? North America has nothing on Islam in that department!

Think about it:
The fact that they were drinking alcohol was `legal*`, mixed company was `legal*`...

BUT drinking AND in `mixed company` while not being married or blood relatives, THAT was still a criminal offence! 10 years was the potential sentence...

*Only legal because they were non-Muslim Canadians, fyi...
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Male 36,374
[quote]I agree with your interpretation of "get caught".[/quote]
Thanks @broizfam! It brightens my day when I can effectively communicate!

[quote]LOL @ CrakrJak`s weak joke![/quote]
@Gerry1: It was good, wasn`t it? I lol`d! V-Neck shirts...

[quote]"There used to be "Blue laws""

Yes. There USED TO BE. In retarded areas full of retarded people.[/quote]
@HolyGod: Are you insulting ISLAM? GO TO ANY ISLAMIC NATION and count the "Blue Laws" OK?
Seriously, you have an extremely "American-Centered" viewpoint sometimes. The Islamic Blue Laws are STRICTLY enforced, btw...

@Linkenburger: Debates were dark days? Or puberty? Do! Tell us more!! :-)
(Note: just yankin your chain Bro! Excellent comment!)
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Male 1,164
I debated on the internet once. And then I hit puberty.

Those were dark days.
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Male 871
wow Gerry and Holy copy and pasting from the same source eh!? lol

And trying to equate child abuse and rape with a termination is just sad.
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Male 5,558
"There used to be "Blue laws""
----Still are, in some places.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery - This is part of divorce law and has been for hundreds of years"

That is CIVIL. it it is NOT ILLEGAL to commit adultery.
----I suspect that there are states where there are anti-adultery laws on the books. I don`t KNOW that to be the case, and it certainly isn`t a federal law (which is really what we`re discussing here), but there really are some odd, personally invasive laws still on the books in some states.

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Male 7,907
Crakr

"Nope, you have a screwed up view of morality. You are of the relativist view, that`s NOT morality that`s doing whatever the hell you want and calling it "moral".

Morality is a doctrine or system of moral conduct. It`s written down for all to know what is right and wrong, so that a society can function with fairness and justice."

According to whom? You?

Morality does not have to be a doctrine given to you by someone else. That is just for weak minded sheep like you who need to be told what to do by imaginary friends.
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Male 7,907
Crakr

"Bzzt, Wrong! Your forgetting a few aren`t you?"

"Honour thy father and thy mother - Basically don`t be a brat which is covered in juvenile law where it`s a crime to abuse your parents and in adult law under "elder abuse"."

It doesn`t say don`t ABUSE them. It says HONOUR them. That is NOT A LAW.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery - This is part of divorce law and has been for hundreds of years"

That is CIVIL. it it is NOT ILLEGAL to commit adultery.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness - aka, Don`t commit perjury, this has also been a part of the law for ages."

Yes, on the witness stand. Everywhere else is fine. Lying is not against the law for the most part.

"There used to be "Blue laws""

Yes. There USED TO BE. In retarded areas full of retarded people.


You are extra special retarded.
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Male 37,888

LOL @ CrakrJak`s weak joke!
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Male 5,558
HG: "Morality is a personal sense of right and wrong."

Nope, you have a screwed up view of morality. You are of the relativist view, that`s NOT morality that`s doing whatever the hell you want and calling it "moral".

I don`t quite agree. You can develope a written moral code that includes stoning to death an adultress. Does that make it a moral act? No. I know, that`s an extreme example but, really we (most of us) have a personal moral code that doesn`t necessarily match exactly with the next person`s and is based on our own personal sense of right and wrong. I would say that someone who just does what he wants and calls it his morality either has no moral code (amoral), or doesn`t care about his moral code as long as he gets what he wants (immoral). It could probably be effectively argued either way, though.
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Male 5,558
@5Cats,
"BUT! Since that decision is entirely "internal" we only have the person`s "self report" on why they did/didn`t do it."
That`s right, but our not being able to know for sure doesn`t change the fact of whether they`re actually good people or just in fear of retribution. I agree with your interpretation of "get caught".
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Male 17,512
"god commands you not to oppress the weak."

That doesn`t include those with weak wrists that wear v-neck shirts and singing along to show tunes.

Sorry, couldn`t resist that stereotype jab.
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Male 37,888

10 commandments? Guess again.
That`s just the ones Moses brought down. But throughout the bible God issues new commandments all the time. Scholars have counted 613 commandments.

Examples
Deut 6:4-5 you are commanded to love god and commanded to fear him. Like Ike Turner did to Tina.
Ex. 21:22 god commands you not to oppress the weak. Boy, no one pays that commandment any mind do they?

etc
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Male 5,811
[quote]Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.." [/quote]
I`d counter with leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood"

Meaning life begins when the foetus is infused with blood, around 3 weeks.

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Male 17,512
HG: "Morality is a personal sense of right and wrong."

Nope, you have a screwed up view of morality. You are of the relativist view, that`s NOT morality that`s doing whatever the hell you want and calling it "moral".

Morality is a doctrine or system of moral conduct. It`s written down for all to know what is right and wrong, so that a society can function with fairness and justice.

"So you are ok with abortions in the 11th week?"

Legally speaking, yes. Religiously, no. Why? Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.."

The hearbeat limit is a compromise based on scientific fact, not my religious convictions.

I`d prefer it if there were no abortions, but that genie is out of the bottle and I don`t see it being bottled up again. Just as I`d prefer that there would be no nuclear weapons, but that`s not feasible to rescind now either.
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Male 17,512
HG: "There are 10 rules in there and only TWO are actual laws today."

Bzzt, Wrong! Your forgetting a few aren`t you?

Honour thy father and thy mother - Basically don`t be a brat which is covered in juvenile law where it`s a crime to abuse your parents and in adult law under "elder abuse".

Thou shalt not commit adultery - This is part of divorce law and has been for hundreds of years

Thou shalt not bear false witness - aka, Don`t commit perjury, this has also been a part of the law for ages.

There used to be "Blue laws", as well, that made it illegal for most businesses to be open on Sunday, but they`ve been changed over the years.

"HG has what?" - A hard time following a conversation in a thread, apparently.
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Male 37,888

"When is it human"
It`s human DNA. From the moment of conception is grows, feeds and continues to grow. Physically it is 100% human... how can it not be considered "a human life" ?

Because it`s tiny it`s easy to kill it? But it`s still 100% human so . . . nope, I`m gonna err on the side of caution. A baby, no matter how small, is a person in my book. But I`m just a godless atheist so what do I know.
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Male 37,888

So the good person is good for altruistic purposes. Not for the good of other but to feel good inside...a reward.

The bad person is good but feels bad. He wants to be bad. "Bad" makes him happy but he behaves good because at some level he knows he cannot give in to temptation and continue to exist.

I think the bad guy acting good is morally superior to the good guy acting good. The end result is the same but the effort it took is vastly different between the two individuals.
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Male 36,374
So it`s agreed?

>When does human life begin.

Is the central problem? There`s other considerations, for sure! But this one`s a "game breaker".

It`s a human when:
-It is conceived (egg fertilized)
-It has unique, human DNA (16 or 32 cells)
-It has brain activity
-It has a heartbeat
-It can live outside the womb
-It is born
-One full year after it`s conception date
-It can do long division
(That one is from a spooky sci-fi short story!!! :eek:)
-It reaches it`s 16th birthday
(a different, spooky sci-fi story)
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Male 36,374
@broizfam: BUT! Since that decision is entirely "internal" we only have the person`s "self report" on why they did/didn`t do it. It could be that the "I never would do that" people are exactly the same as the "I don`t want to get caught" people, only bigger fibbers! :-P

I don`t see too much difference: "I don`t want to get caught, so I`d never do that" "I`d never do that, because I don`t want to get caught" There is a lot of overlap, yes?
("get caught" includes repercussions & consequences, in this case, to me.)

@SmagBoy1: I`ll give you this much: If she`s just referring to Catholics & them being opposed to birth control (even after marriage!) then yes, she`s got a very valid point!
Her being a Nun? It`s quite likely...
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Male 37,888

@ broizfam - good answer.
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Male 5,558
In other words, I`m not talking about the person who`s "trying to be better than his nature". I`m talking about the one who is simply trying to avoid jail.
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Male 5,558
@Gerry,
Not exactly. The better person is the one who doesn`t need to make an effort to be good because he`s good by nature, rather than the one whose ONLY reason for being good is to avoid being punished. On the other hand, someone who makes an effort to be good despite pressure to the contrary deserves great respect. I`m talking about, for example, a person of poor economic status who bypasses the easy theft and takes hard work, instead, to feed his/her family because he feels it`s wrong to steal. If your only reason for not harming someone is to avoid harm to yourself then trying to be good has nothing at all to do with respect for your fellow human being. Sociopaths can be good, but it`s only to avoid being caught. The end result may be similar but the drive that achieves that result is entirely different.
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Male 7,907
Smagboy1

"That`s very, very wrong."

Your link:

"About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage."

So let`s take the low end:

100% - 10% = 90%

What I said:

"A pregnancy in a healthy female results in a baby 90%+ of the time."

So VERY VERY wrong? Bit hyperbolic no?

My source specifically says "With PROPER MEDICAL CARE a pregnancy in a HEALTHY female"

Your number is ALL pregnancies. So that includes 40+ yr old women, crack heads, alcoholics, women with medical issues, and anything else outside of my parameters that increase miscarriage.

So.....

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Male 4,431
I think the quote was entirely true, elegantly-stated, and wonderful. I think that when you don`t support real sex ed (other than abstinence only, which we know doesn`t work), when you don`t support the use of contraception, when you don`t support the morning after pill, when you don`t support abortion, then what you are supporting is a ban on sex. But only for women. Because we don`t care about the men. No one holds them responsible.

If we then also don`t also support any form of medical support, any form of education assistance for financially strapped people, any form of subsidized childcare or welfare or house, what we`re really doing is being wholly and entirely morally inconsistent and illogical.
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Male 4,431
HolyGod, you say "With proper medical care a pregnancy in a healthy female results in a baby 90%+ of the time." That`s very, very wrong. Please see here, a Mayo Clinic (very brief) discussion of the issue.
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Male 2,357
@HolyGod

Don`t get me wrong, by most measures I`m prolife.

I just have an exceptionally hard time thinking that a couple of gametes become a living being the moment they pair. Then again, I have a habit of trying to force "grey" problems into black-and-white.
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Male 7,907
HumanAction

"I constrain myself to its current state."

I get that. However I think potentiality has value. It certainly does other places. It is what our economy is based on.

"Well, they have a 100% potential to die in the future, so, therefore they must be dead."

Excellent counterpoint. I can`t think of a good counterpoint to that.
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Male 2,357
@HolyGod

Imagine if that criteria was used to decide on whether or not someone is currently dead.

"Well, they have a 100% potential to die in the future, so, therefore they must be dead."

If we are deciding on something`s states `right now`, then we need to be confined to the characteristics `right now` as well.
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Male 2,357
@HolyGod

[quote]However if that rosemary would have turned into a healthy baby if you wouldn`t have eaten it then I would have a problem.[/quote]
I get what you`re going for here; however, when trying to decide whether something is alive or not, I constrain myself to its current state.

Deciding whether or not something is alive is very different from deciding whether or not it could be alive in the future.

[quote]wouldn`t you consider that attempted murder 100% of the time?[/quote]
Yes, but this analogy only works if you assume that the fetus is living from the point of conception. I deny this and suggest that a cluster of cells with no differentiating characteristics between it and non-living cellular structures - other than future potential - cannot be considered uniquely alive.
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Male 7,907
HumanAction

"DNA, on the other hand, is common among many types of life. I don`t think many people would be upset if I murdered some rosemary or sage with dinner."

Agreed.

However if that rosemary would have turned into a healthy baby if you wouldn`t have eaten it then I would have a problem.

With proper medical care a pregnancy in a healthy female results in a baby 90%+ of the time.

That means no matter WHAT point of development you draw the line, 90% of the time you are destroying something that otherwise would have been a healthy human being.

If I strapped you to a bomb that had a 90% chance of detonating, meaning 90% of the time I was destroying a human, wouldn`t you consider that attempted murder 100% of the time?
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Male 2,357
@5Cats

All I mean to suggest is that, at some point, a non-living cluster of cells becomes a living cluster of cells. To find that point, we must find something measureable, necessary, and unique to animal life.

From what I have seen, nervous activity is unique to animals (or animal "parts"), and is necessary for animal life. Of course, someone may come along and point me to some contradictory evidence; in which case, I would need to adjust my position.

DNA, on the other hand, is common among many types of life. I don`t think many people would be upset if I murdered some rosemary or sage with dinner.
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Male 7,907
5Cats

"But really? I think everyone thinks of "bad things" they`d like to do, now and then."

Sure. But what stops you? Your own personal sense of right and wrong or fear of punishment?

I`ve had girls hit on me at a bar.
I didn`t take them home because I wouldn`t cheat on my girlfriend because I made a commitment to her.

It wasn`t because I worried about getting caught or getting punished. I know full well I could have done it without her ever knowing, especially on a business trip.

There is a distinction to me between doing right or wrong because you feel it is important and doing right or wrong because you fear punishment or are trying to earn reward.
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Male 36,374
@patchy & @broizfam: How about:
They (pedo priests) ACT amorally which makes them immoral.

@HolyGod: I have lots of "desires" I don`t carry out. I thought it was because of Freud!
Id, Ego and Super-ego

But really? I think everyone thinks of "bad things" they`d like to do, now and then.

@HumanAction: I don`t disagree with that! I use DNA even thought it`s EXTREMELY early! (first few days? I forget) after the 4th cell division it`s unique & separate from the Mother.
It`s also the same in every pregnancy, no "grey area" about it.
Is a "16 (or 32) cell blob" a human being?
Well, as you said, that depends!
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Male 37,888

So the person who makes not effort is better than the guy who works hard to be better than his nature. ?

Interesting
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Male 5,558
"Who is the better person? The one who makes a great effort to be good or the one who doesn`t?"

The way the statement is made, I would say the better person is the one who doesn`t have to make the effort because he/she is the one who feels that others have the right not to be raped, killed, robbed, etc., whereas the other ONLY makes that effort to avoid punishment.
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Male 579
Wow lots of crazy stuff here. At least in part one of the reasons the Catholic church is so strict against abortion is that if you say it`s ok to commit an evil, even in one circumstance, do you not open pandora`s box to all sorts of areas where people can claim this evil is ok to do because it is for the greater good?

When does life begin? At birth? Conception? Some time in between? The Bible says that "even before you were in the womb I knew you". So taken to the extreme, did not all our lives "begin" when this universe began? (However you choose to believe it started).

And are all those who only see the negative awful things in unwanted births fortune tellers? How do you know any one child`s life will only be a life of suffering and pain? Who granted you the right to decide that for anyone else? You had that option but you are so eager to take that away from another human being.

I am a HUGE fan of preventing having to make
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Male 37,888

[quote]"If you have a desire to rape and murder and steal but the only reason you don`t is because the bible says not to I would argue you are not a moral person." [/quote]

So you have the guy above who wants to but doesn`t through great personal self-control and willpower and you`ve got the guy who doesn`t desire those things so it`s no effort for him to behave nice.

Who is the better person? The one who makes a great effort to be good or the one who doesn`t?

Take me for example. I`m a total non-nice individual. It take a lot more effort for me to tolerate others and be nice to them than it does someone who is just born nice-natured. I think making the extra effort makes me a better person.
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Male 5,558
"If you have a desire to rape and murder and steal but the only reason you don`t is because the bible says not to I would argue you are not a moral person."

Exactly! Of course, in such a case it`s a good thing there`s a bible. (I can`t believe I just wrote that!)
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Male 2,357
The discussion should focus on the necessary prerequisites for a fetus to be considered a life.

Some people consider the point of life to be viability, first trimester, detectable heartbeat, neural activity, or even conception. In my opinion, when the neural tube closes (week 5-6), then there is evidence of life. While the activity is far from conscious thought, it is a clear distinction from non-living cellular clusters. Before that point, I can`t make a reasonable case that the cluster is living based on what it is - as opposed to what it may be in the future.

Either way, until we can agree on the point where a non-living structure suddenly starts living, then most arguments about abortion are nonsense.
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Male 7,907
Crakr

I would also argue that christians, or religious people in general, aren`t moral if they take their morality from a book. Morality is a personal sense of right and wrong. If you only do things because you are told (bible) or because of punishment (hell) and reward (heaven) that doesn`t qualify.

If you have a desire to rape and murder and steal but the only reason you don`t is because the bible says not to I would argue you are not a moral person.
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Male 5,558
@randomxnp,
I don`t think she`s being naive. I think she`s simply pointing out that people who claim to be pro-life need to put more thought into what they`re supporting and know what they really mean. But who knows, maybe I`m reading it wrong and you`re exactly right!
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Male 5,558
@patchgrabber,
"I would argue they act amorally." I don`t think I can agree with that. If they have a moral code and don`t follow it, they`re immoral. If they have NO moral code, they`re amoral.

@CrakrJak,
Actually, with a high quality sonogram machine the fetal heart can be detected as early as 5 1/2 to 6 weeks gestation. Well before brain activity or any more than a rudimentary start of a nervous system. Personally, I`m pro-choice. I understand those who are pro-life as long as their reasoning is their own. That is, as soon as someone says, "I`m pro-life because the Bible says..." they`ve lost their argument with me. If they`re pro-life because they honestly, personally believe it to be murder, I have to honor their belief. Also, we atheists can certainly have a moral code, just like anyone else. We just don`t attribute it to having been handed down as law by a god.
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Male 7,907
Crakr

"was saying HG has, for other arguments, and was pointing out the inconsistency of it."

HG has what?
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Male 36,374
OMG @Magentab0b! That`s funny too! I repeat it since my post will knock yours off the "front page" eh?

"abortion should be available to women around the world!"
@WendyPants: PLENTY of cultures (like ISLAM) forbid abortions. Are you going to IMPOSE "Western Values" on them? How?

"No one, not man nor woman, has the right to do any old damn thing they want, not even with their own body."

Darn Right @Gerry1!
It`s typical "liberal-think" eh?
`One law for YOU, another law for Liberals` = Liberal Golden Rule

"Its not a baby or a child"
@McDuff73
WRONG! It has separate DNA from the host-mother after the 4th division! It is, legally speaking, a SEPERATE human being from THAT point onward.

"Jews aren`t human" = Legal Nazi LAW! Correct? Woul
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Male 7,907
patchgrabber

"So if abortion were to be made illegal, I wonder what all of you would suggest the punishment for the woman should be if she were to go against that law. Outlawing abortion will not stop it, as was evidenced by the law before Roe v. Wade."

Dunno. Good question. However would you not agree that it has gotten way easier to prevent pregnancy since 1973?

There aren`t many legitimate reasons to get pregnant without wanting to. There aren`t many excuses. Plus as has already been pointed out, nobody is forced to keep a baby. Adoption is always an option.

So in most cases we are weighing the inconvenience of a few months for the woman because of her own decisions against the life of a baby. To me that is an easy choice. To some people it is easy in the other direction.

Abortion is used as a form of birth control today. I know people who have had 3+ abortions.
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Male 7,907
Crakr

"That`s why I believe the "Heartbeat" standard would suffice legally. At around 12 weeks"

So you are ok with abortions in the 11th week?
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Male 7,907
Crakr

"If you cop out by saying "cultural norms" then you`re citing the 10 commandments in the bible, by proxy."

Huh? The 10 commandments? Seriously?

Those don`t line up with our cultural norms.

1. There are 10 rules in there and only TWO are actual laws today.

2. Don`t kill and don`t steal were already laws in societies WAY before the 10 commandments.

3. The first 4 "laws" of the 10 commandments are: I`m the number one bestest god.
Don`t make things that look like some things. Don`t say my name in a mean way.
One day a week don`t do anything but worship me.

4. While the above 4 make the cut here are some that don`t:
Don`t rape
Don`t abuse kids
Don`t abuse your wife
Don`t assault someone
I happen to think those 4 are a LITTLE more important? Don`t you? Because your god certainly doesn`t. Apparently he would rather that you raped a woman than say "god damn it&quo
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Male 7,907
Crakr

"But since you`re an atheist, what moral guide do you use to make such judgments?"

You want my moral guide? It is SUPER simple and I try to apply it in everything:

Try to enjoy your life as much as possible and do whatever you want as long as it doesn`t impede another`s ability to do whatever they want.

Call it considerate hedonism.
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Male 7,907
Draculya

"If you don`t get that a woman has a right to her own body you`re probably Christian"

If you think I`m christian you REALLY haven`t been paying attention.
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Female 7,833
There is nothing special about life- with the possible exception of Jains (?) most people kill every single day. There is nothing about human life- most religious are happy for people to die for various reasons- sometime the state itself is allowed to do it. So perhaps it is about suffering- that `might` have a bit more to it. Problem is that most people who are anti-abortion are a bit vague about when it is okay- can a cell or two suffer? Most abortions are performed around 12-15 weeks, and not at term by bludgeoning a child to death- which happens elsewhere- later term abortions are often done for foetal abnormality, so we end up with a complicated issue which can only be fairly dealt with on a case by case basis. Which is pretty much what happens with legal abortion...
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Male 37,888

[quote]"It`s "pick-n-choose" morality for atheists. That`s NOT real morality, that`s relativism. Relativism says that nobody is objectively right or wrong"[/quote]
Pick and choose? Of course. Morals ARE a choice, even if you justify them with a god/spirit/being. As for no wright or wrong, nope. In my moral code there are definitely some black and white issues. Some things ARE wrong...like killing your children.
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Male 1,293
The naivity and ignorance of a woman sequestered away from the world. Sorry, but ripping this apart is beyond 1000 characters, perhaps just to say that life cannot happen without birth. No child in the western world starves except by the choice of the parents.
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Male 37,888

[quote"So you have no problem using the Bible as a moral guide so long as the morals you choose to use are similar to other cultural guides."[/quote]
I didn`t endorse the bible. I said the morals within it are made up. Not universal constants as some would believe.

And I definitely will not live by the moral code in the Bible. Hell, Christians can`t do it so why would they expect me to?
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Male 2,549
Sometimes I think that the people who do abort oughtn`t and that some of those who don`t...you fill in the rest. I can`t really force myself into advocating abortion when the concept is subjectively morally abhorrent.
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Male 2,549
Wendypants said, "The nun seems to be saying that if a woman is very well aware that her child`s life would be a poo life, where she won`t be able to properly care for it, she should have her choice on how to deal with the pregnancy because it seems like some people don`t care about what the quality of that child`s life might/could be. "

I think that the unfortunate thing about women who are conscientious enough to be deeply affected by the prospect of being unable to provide properly for their unborn child to the point of opting for abortion is that those women, most often, would likely make fabulous mothers ... and if left with no other option would likely succeed in giving their child a much better life than they had envisioned.

And what of pregnancy induced depression? How many perfectly suitable mothers choose abortion while in the clutches of the distortions of that wicked condition?

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Male 17,512
Gerry: "I`m sure he uses the same kind of moral guide Christians use"

Aka, the Bible. So you have no problem using the Bible as a moral guide so long as the morals you choose to use are similar to other cultural guides.

It`s "pick-n-choose" morality for atheists. That`s NOT real morality, that`s relativism. Relativism says that nobody is objectively right or wrong, and that because nobody is right or wrong, they should tolerate the behavior of others even when they disagree about their morality.
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Male 5,811
So if abortion were to be made illegal, I wonder what all of you would suggest the punishment for the woman should be if she were to go against that law. Outlawing abortion will not stop it, as was evidenced by the law before Roe v. Wade.
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Male 37,888

McDuff, [quote]"Its not a baby or a child its a clump of cells"[/quote]
So are you, just a much bigger clump of cells.
That is the main point of the argument, "Is It A "Person""? To be truthful no one can say for certainty. Not scientist nor preacher, no one.

The only thing we do know for certain is that, left to do it`s thing, in a few months a real person will emerge. When the outcome is a baby`s life I prefer to err on the side of caution. Especially when prevention is so damn easy and affordable.
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Male 5,811
[quote]Conversely, I would say many men of God behave quite immorally[/quote]
I would argue they act amorally. With the threat of eternal punishment and the reward of eternal bliss, how can one be seen to act morally?
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Male 5,811
[quote]But since you`re an atheist, what moral guide do you use to make such judgments?[/quote]
Likely empathy; where all morals are derived from.
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Male 37,888

CrakrJak, [quote]"since you`re an atheist, what moral guide do you use to make such judgments?"[/quote] It`s okay HolyGod, I got this one...

@ crazy ass crackrJak - I`m sure he uses the same kind of moral guide Christians use... one that has been made up. Morals are a choice, not a scientific absolute. Many religions and cultures, many moral codes. Don`t assume atheists don`t have morality. A person can believe it`s wrong to kill or steel even if they are not told so by a supernatural being.

Conversely, I would say many men of God behave quite immorally, unless f*cking little boys is considered kosher in that moral code.
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Male 17,512
McDuff: Many times the law is not logically applied and common sense is completely ignored when applying it. Btw, Abortion was never a "law", it was never a bill, it was not approved by congress nor signed into law by any president. It was a supreme court judgement, not legislation. Therefore their judgement may change and/or congress may act to change it.

Just because something is "legal" doesn`t mean it`s a "law" or "right". For instance it`s legal to smoke marijuana, but it`s against the law, in most places, to possess it. I know that`s convoluted as all hell, but that`s how it is.
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Male 871
Its not a baby or a child its a clump of cells with the potential to be either of those and untill the pre-requisite term depending on where you live ie 24 weeks in the UK it will remain so.
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Male 871
@5Cats how you can say my comment equates morality with legality is beyond me particularly as I go on to point out thats not what I was saying and Holy has misinterpreted what I said maybe you didnt read it properly?

"@McDuff73: Except, of course YOU! See:"

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Male 17,512
Gerry: I wasn`t saying you did use it for that justification, was saying HG has, for other arguments, and was pointing out the inconsistency of it.
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Male 871
@Holy "No I don`t. To me legality doesn`t differentiate them in a significant way. To me they are unacceptable acts. I judge them morally, not legally"

Well once again you missed my point!

I was pointing out the fact that you were trying to link legal and criminal acts, that said however try ignoring the difference in the eyes of the law and see how far that gets you.
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Male 17,512
HG: "I judge them morally..."

But since you`re an atheist, what moral guide do you use to make such judgments? If you cop out by saying "cultural norms" then you`re citing the 10 commandments in the bible, by proxy.

PG: "Still waiting for someone to show me that something cannot exist at one point (conceived), and be given rights at another time."

That`s why I believe the "Heartbeat" standard would suffice legally. At around 12 weeks, the heartbeat, is easily detectable by ultrasound or prenatal ecg and it fits with it`s opposite, the definition of death, which is when the heart stops (permanently).
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Male 37,888

[quote]"If you don`t get that a woman has a right to her own body you`re probably Christian"[/quote]
No, I`m atheist.
First, no one disputes her right to her body, it`s her right to kill off the babies body that is in dispute.

Second, No one, not man nor woman, has the right to do any old damn thing they want, not even with their own body. You cannot sell off a spare kidney on Ebay. There are a lot of drugs you are not allowed to put into your body. In most states you are not allowed to rent your body out for sexual favors. So whoever told you "women have the right to do whatever they want with their body" is quite wrong. Legally and morally.
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Male 37,888

[quote]"You`ve used that same logic before."[/quote]
Crakr - I`m quite certain I`ve never used that logic to justify abortion. I`ve always been against infanticide . On other topics such as politics yes I have, but how other people pass laws is not my business. What goes on in my own country is.
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Male 37,888

[quote]"A woman`s body, a woman`s choice; "[/quote]
What about the other body? The babies body...he doesn`t get a choice. It`s not about denying women personal rights, it`s about protecting those who cannot protect themselves.
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Female 2,415
A woman`s body, a woman`s choice; abortion should be available to women around the world! I do strongly agree with Gerry in that it shouldn`t be used as a form of contraceptive (abused by lazy women, who seem to have sex/babies/abortions on a whim) ... it is a hard choice to make, sure but the option should be there.
...
The nun seems to be saying that if a woman is very well aware that her child`s life would be a poo life, where she won`t be able to properly care for it, she should have her choice on how to deal with the pregnancy because it seems like some people don`t care about what the quality of that child`s life might/could be.
It just....I`m not sure why but it kind of reminds me of the mind set of a woman who called me irresponsible because I chose to not get pregnant; blew my mind, really, that - considering I don`t WANT kids - that she thinks that not having a kid when you don`t want one is... irresponsible?
(and no, I`ve never had an abortion, don`t plan on
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Female 1,467
I prefer C&H`s newest form of contraception.
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Male 5,811
Still waiting for someone to show me that something cannot exist at one point (conceived), and be given rights at another time. "Murder" is a legal term and does not apply. "Killing" may, but just because something may be intrinsically valuable does not mean it has a right to life.
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Male 36,374
[quote]No one claimed legality equates to morality...[/quote]
@McDuff73: Except, of course YOU! See:

[quote]child abuse and rape are criminal acts whereas terminations are legal medical procedures nice fail though.[/quote]
See?

[quote]No Holy I dont recall justifying terminations by dint of legality or not[/quote]
I recall it! It`s right there!

[quote]*retarded.

Damned spell checker[/quote]
LMAO @Draculya: Ok, that right there was funny! Funniest thing on IAB this week!


+1 Internets for @Draculya! :-)
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Male 36,374
[quote]A lot of the people waiting to adopt want white babies.

It isn`t racist, it`s just reality. People want kids that look like them and they want to raise them from scratch.[/quote]
@HolyGod: YOU are ABSOLUTLEY 100% CORRECT! Well done Bro!

I personally know several couples who adopted "older children" and it was usually VERY difficult! By age 3 or 4 a child`s personality is (mostly) set: altering it is really hard.

In some cases the "problems" arrived years later, around puberty, or when the "crack mom" suddenly demanded visitation "rights" (after 10+ years of silence).

Many stories ended sadly, despite the heroic efforts of the parents...

So: NO! That is not the answer. Birth control IS and 95% of "pro-lifers" agree!
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Male 36,374
[quote]If I am forced to hand over my money...[/quote]
Correct! @AntEconomist is the smartest human on IAB! :-)

[quote]as a baby comes available, you take it[/quote]
Two questions @Slut_Etta:
#1 Why should I be FORCED to raise someone else`s child? How is that "pro-choice"?
#2 The wait to adopt is 5-8 YEARS, no need to force people, they`re already lining up!!

[quote] It isn`t charity if it comes at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun.[/quote]
@OldOllie: Also 100% correct!

@Jake_Justice: Everyone loves "The Penguin"!
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Male 36,374
She`s stupid as all get-up!

TAX money to raise children? Really? Can you say "cradle to grave welfare"? Yes You Can!

The very people (Religious types) who oppose "recreational abortion" are the SAME people who support hundreds of charities to help the poor and orphaned.

It`s a FACT.
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Male 14,773
*retarded.

Damned spell checker
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Male 14,773
If you don`t get that a woman has a right to her own body you`re probably Christian
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Male 7,907
McDuff73

"you tried to link rape and child abuse both criminal acts to a woman having a perfectly legal termination, you see the difference?"

No I don`t. To me legality doesn`t differentiate them in a significant way. To me they are unacceptable acts. I judge them morally, not legally.
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Male 871
No Holy I dont recall justifying terminations by dint of legality or not, what I do recall is pointing out that you tried to link rape and child abuse both criminal acts to a woman having a perfectly legal termination, you see the difference?
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Male 7,907
McDuff73

"Not just differences a huge glaring hole in your pathetic attempt to conflate criminal acts with perfectly legal ones."

You are saying abortion is ok but rape isn`t right?

The reason you are using is that one is legal and one isn`t right?

Zimmerman shooting martin was legal.

Driving 56 in a 55 is illegal.

So by your logic driving a mile over the speed limit is a worse act than killing someone.
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Male 871
"Those are also differences"

Not just differences a huge glaring hole in your pathetic attempt to conflate criminal acts with perfectly legal ones.
No one claimed legality equates to morality so why your trying to claim that is beyond me, but then your the one trying to equate criminal and non criminal acts so then to try and preach morality to others is laughable.
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Male 7,907
McDuff73

"Also child abuse and rape are criminal acts whereas terminations are legal medical procedures nice fail though."

Those are also differences.

However legality doesn`t equate morality. If child abuse was legal than in your mind it would be ok?

Rape is basically legal in some countries. So that is OK there right?
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Male 7,907
CrakrJak

Not sure what your critique here means, but I think you are reading my (gerry`s) comment wrong.
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Male 871
"I agree I guess. People survive child abuse and rape"

Also child abuse and rape are criminal acts whereas terminations are legal medical procedures nice fail though.
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Male 3,909
While we`re on the topic of abortion again I guess I`ll post this to lighten mood.




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Male 17,512
HG: "Is that your logic?"

Isn`t that the pot calling the kettle black. You`ve used that same logic before.

"To passively sit by and let a child be killed on a whim is immoral ."

I`ll agree with you there, but as the sister said we need to ensure that child has a decent life. The best way to do that is reduce teenage pregnancies and make father`s take responsibility, and I don`t just mean monetarily.
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Male 7,907
McDuff73

"wow Gerry and Holy copy and pasting from the same source eh!? lol"

Well I can only ASSUME that gerry wrote that. I was going to respond to your comment with almost an identical statement, so I thought it would just be easier to echo him verbatim as a pseudo-joke.

"And trying to equate child abuse and rape with a termination is just sad."

I agree I guess. People survive child abuse and rape.
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Male 871
wow Gerry and Holy copy and pasting from the same source eh!? lol

And trying to equate child abuse and rape with a termination is just sad.
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Male 7,907
McDuff73

"get over it, if you dont like abortions dont have one."

My opinion on that:

To each there own huh? So, if you don`t like child abuse don`t abuse one, but don`t stop me? Is that your logic? If you don`t like rape etc.

Sometimes you have to try and protect the people who cannot protect themselves. This is a moral objective. To passively sit by and let a child be killed on a whim is immoral .
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Male 37,888

McDuff73, [quote]"if you dont like abortions dont have one."[/quote]
To each there own huh? So, if you don`t like child abuse don`t abuse one, but don`t stop me? Is that your logic? If you don`t like rape etc.

Sometimes you have to try and protect the people who cannot protect themselves. This is a moral objective. To passively sit by and let a child be killed on a whim is immoral .
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Male 871
fark you yanks still stuck on this!?

get over it, if you dont like abortions dont have one.
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Male 3,909
@OldOllie - This vow of obedience you speak of states that she is required to follow church law. The Catholic Church is against abortion, she`s not saying she`s for abortion so she`s not breaking that vow. She`s simply pointing out that people who say "Abortion is wrong and you have no choice but to give birth to that child" and then turn around and say, "Well it`s your kid, if you can`t feed him then too f*cking bad..." after said child is born, are a$$holes.

George Carlin said it best, "If you`re pre-born, you`re fine. If you`re pre-school, you`re f*cked."
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Male 586
With "holygod" on this one.
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Male 37,888

Draculya, [quote]"Abortion, like euthanasia, is neither morally right or wrong."[/quote]
Those are completely different things.
The only way you can compare them is if you take the decision to euthanize away from the person being euthanized. Give it to their greedy children for example. Then see how moral it is to kill your parent because it`s just not convenient to have them in your life. Parents are soooo expensive!

Now you can compare euthanasia with abortion.
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Male 15,832
@Koliup "You missed the point of what she`s saying."

No, you`re the one who COMPLETELY missed the point of what I was saying.

There`s no virtue whatsoever in calling for the government to force other people to support your pet cause. That`s why Jesus never called on the Romans to raise taxes to support charitable works.

@whodat6484 "Boo-F*cking-Hoo... you`re allowed to express your f*cktard opinions and so is she."

I never took a vow of obedience; she did. Also, no one looks to me for theological guidance, although I think she proved herself less qualified in that regard than I am, and I don`t even believe that junk.
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Male 7,907
Draculya

"Abortion, like euthanasia, is neither morally right or wrong. Only the motivations of the individuals involved can be judged ethically."

Totally disagree.

Euthanasia, on the decision of the person being euthanized, is freedom of choice.

Abortion is murder, unless the fetus makes the decision.
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Male 14,773
Abortion, like euthanasia, is neither morally right or wrong. Only the motivations of the individuals involved can be judged ethically.

Just like guns.
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Male 7,907
richanddead

"463,000 children live in foster care, and only 120,000 will be allowed to be adopted. With 1.5 million American families still wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child."

Problem is:

A lot of the children in foster care are over 4 and are minorities.

A lot of the people waiting to adopt want white babies.

It isn`t racist, it`s just reality. People want kids that look like them and they want to raise them from scratch.
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Male 3,909
"...and worse, they allow them to express their f***tard opinions in public."

Boo-F*cking-Hoo... you`re allowed to express your f*cktard opinions and so is she. It`s called freedom of speech, deal with it.
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Male 37,888

I have no problem with tax money feeding children. I have a problem with welfare mothers selling the benefits for cash so they can buy booze. I have a problem with more and more waste instead fixing a system because we are too PC {politically cowardly} to do so.
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Male 21
@OldOllie You missed the point of what she`s saying. She isn`t asking you to actively care for children who`re born because their parents couldn`t have an abortion done(though, it may be implied, you can if you wish to). Rather, to understand that if you support and call for all fetuses to be delivered, then you`re going to have to accept that some slice of your pie(more than is currently!) WILL be going to those additional children. Those unloved, crack baby children. She doesn`t have a problem, judging from the quote, with people who support abortion and don`t mind the additional tax. Or people who don`t support it, and don`t want to pay additional tax. But rather, the hypocrites who wish to see only a child come to be, and not have to feel the consequences in some way. Damning the kid and their parents to a terrible life.
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Male 3,842
Rich - I couldn`t agree with you more. We are close friends with a couple who have two adopted daughters. Oddly enough, they were both adopted through "Catholic Charities" which is a vocal Pro-Life group but clearly takes steps to place the children with loving parents after they are born. Sort of like what this Nun says is "Pro-Life" rather than "Pro-Birth"
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Male 3,947
Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. Nationwide in 2013, 463,000 children live in foster care, and only 120,000 will be allowed to be adopted. With 1.5 million American families still wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

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Male 15,832
She`s completely full of $#!+. Jesus never called on the Romans to be His brother`s keeper. It isn`t charity if it comes at the point of a sword or the barrel of a gun. Rather He said that WE should give VOLUNTARILY to help those in need.

Unfortunately, some orders allow stupid socialist twats like this to join, and worse, they allow them to express their f***tard opinions in public.
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Female 4,086
my ex always said that if you were pro-life then you should put yourself on a master government list. and as a baby comes available, you take it, raise it on your own dime, and not expect any governmental assistance.

if you are so opposed to abortion (and/or sex education), then put your MONEY where your MOUTH is. or just shut the hell up already.
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Male 371
Yet what she advocates is not morality but amorality. If I give my money freely, then I behave morally. If I am forced to hand over my money and the money is used for good (or for ill), I have behaved amorally.
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Male 7,031
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Male 1,097
well yes and no. If she is proposing MORE government funds going to lazy self-absorbed people who are simply baby factories....no way. Drop them cold turkey.

If she is advocating to teach and train the youth of this country to make us regain a competitive manufacturing and R&D research advantage....then I am all for her. The best way out of poverty and hunger is a good job
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Female 4,447
She`s got a point.
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Male 72
That actually makes a lot of sense.
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Male 938
Link: Abortion Is Nun Of Your Business [Pic] [Rate Link] - You tell `em sister. A religious person with CONSISTENT morals calling out the hypocrites.
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